Brooke Sprowl

Are you playing the infinite game?


“We have it in our power to begin the world over again.” -Thomas Paine

To the extent that each of us looks in the mirror honestly and does our own inner work steadfastly, we begin to change the culture. 

As we do this together, we have the power to shift the collective consciousness and affect systemic change.

Because guess what? 

Our systems are just made up agreements. So in a very tangible way, changing the world is as simple as changing our minds. 

But only if we do it together.

We have been conditioned to believe that changing the world is impossible. Because if we believe the narrative that we are powerless, we aren’t a threat to the prevailing power structures. 

So the more we fail to do inner work as individuals, the more oppressive systems can continue to thrive—and the more these systems thrive, the further they throttle each individual’s ability to heal and awaken.

It’s a feedback loop. 

And self-doubt is at the heart of it. Self-doubt is what enables systems of oppression to continue on both micro and macro levels. 

Awake people do not allow themselves to be oppressed. 

Because of how deeply our cultural programming runs, often our individual psyches and internal ways of being are a microcosm of the sociopolitical systems in which we find ourselves. And conversely, the microcosm of our individual ways of thinking and being becomes reflected in the macrocosm of society as a whole. 

If we can begin to deprogram our cultural conditioning and heal the trauma that wounds our self-trust, we can reclaim our intuition, step into individual and collective transformation, and enter a new paradigm together. 

That’s the infinite game. 

In the finite game, more for you is less for me. In the infinite game, more for any of us is more for all of us. 

In the infinite game, when one of us thrives, we help others thrive, and as the community thrives, individuals thrive even more and on and on ad infinitum. 

This means we are no longer in competition with one another because we recognize that what hurts one of us hurts us all, and what heals each of us individually serves collective healing. 

Because our individual and collective wellbeing are inextricably entwined. 

We’re not really separate. 

When we begin to see that our systemic and societal problems are tangibly created by our collective ideas of what is acceptable, we recognize that global problems are not logistical. They’re actually spiritual.

For the first time in history, we have the resources, infrastructure, and technology to eradicate global poverty and feed every human on the planet. 

So why don’t we? 

Mostly because we’ve been conditioned to believe we can’t. We’ve been sold the narrative that we are powerless and that these problems are actually intractable. 

But this narrative is only “true” because we believe it is. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

The problems are in fact intractable if we believe they are. And they are also wholly solvable if we believe they are.

It’s like that old saying, “Whether you believe you can or you believe you can’t, you’re right.” 

It reminds me of that scene from Elf when Zoe Dechanel starts to sing to make Santa’s sleigh fly. And at first she’s the only one singing so nothing happens. 

But when everyone starts singing, it takes off. 

There’s a reason that scene is touching that is deeper than meets the eye. It speaks to some deep intuition we have about what is possible.

It’s a metaphor for a deep truth about collective belief and action: When people band together and believe they can do the impossible, the impossible happens.  

Think about how many things that seemed impossible historically have been achieved. Walking on the moon was only possible because we decided to believe it was.

In a way, collective beliefs have the power of a kind of miracle. 

Our monetary, political, and social systems are all just made up reflections of what we all believe is possible and acceptable. And we desperately need an upgrade in our beliefs about what is possible because what is possible has changed significantly in our lifetimes but we haven’t caught up. 

When we pull back the curtain, we see that in a very concrete and real way, our shared beliefs are the basis of every external system in our society. 

By rejecting the conditioned narrative that there isn’t enough to go around, we recognize the inherent abundance that exists when resources are wielded equitably within just systems. 

Freeing our minds from the limitations of our conditioned realities allows us to wake up to individual and collective possibilities beyond our ordinary comprehension, and invite others into this awakened state. 

This actually makes miracles possible and has the potential to change the world in meaningful ways.

In this way, each of us has the power to substantively change the world. Half of the battle of systemic change is just dismantling the belief that we can’t. 

And our latest podcast episode dives deep into these ideas. Foa Kinfyre and I explore topics such as codependency, parts work, dismantling conditioned beliefs and power structures, art as a spiritual practice, creativity and pleasure as activism, and the way personal and collective awakening are interwoven.

Listen to this podcast on:

[Music] hello and welcome to on living with Brooke Sproul I’m Brooke Sproul and my  
lovely guest today is boa kinfire an old friend of mine a dear friend   of mine and a very powerful somatic  practitioner educator and healer she’s 
also a musician and performance  artist and a dream worker and   I’m really excited to see what emerges today welcome thanks thanks Brooke for having me so  
where shall We Begin what have you been pondering lately well I’m   I’m currently like in a in the suburbs which isn’t a place that I feel comfortable in 
um so that’s on my mind and just feeling  the the control the the clear control and 
the simulation of the suburbs  and how the design is for safety 
um that they actually make me feel less  safe so that’s sort of like the first thing 
that I’m you know that genuinely is sort  of living on the surface of my experience 
I’ve been visiting the suburbs as  well and having similar experiences I 
remember a month or so ago I was down  there and I and a fork course this isn’t 
entirely true this is an oversimplification or  over generalization but the feeling I had was 
I can just you know fit myself into what  I think I’m supposed to be then I can 
maybe put off the task permanently or  temporarily of deep self-examination so 
I don’t know if that’s true that might  be a complete projection but that was   the feeling that I had along with a feeling of  
just a a lack of cultural value for individuality and individual expression  
a good feeling like because since we  both grew up there feeling like I have  to show up a certain way to be accepted  as opposed to I’m celebrated in my 
uniqueness um interesting yeah it’s  interesting to think about design 
and how it impacts our personalities world view 
um yeah because I I imagine that  avoiding looking at what’s difficult 
exists in other you know in  other Scapes and other sort 
of like City designs but there is something  about um the suburbs thought it feels 
it feels denuded it feels like the Wilds  doesn’t really exist there on purpose 
um and I you know again yeah we’re  speaking in generalizations but 
I also feel like there is something  about individualism of like this is   my property like this is mine you know so there’s maybe individuality of ownership  
um but there is like this sort of falling in line with um presentation [Music]  
that does feel like a pattern um and sort of formula formulaic  
um it is interesting we both grew up in the context how do you why we became friends  
so Outsiders Outsiders I know if it wasn’t for like Emo music and the in the  
early 2000s [Laughter] it really was helpful 
it’s like everything sucks and it’s painful  you know it’s like I needed everything to  
counterweight everything I was seeing around me where   everything was fine right right yeah and I agree with what you said  
about of course in every human we all in some ways aren’t looking we all in some  
ways are avoiding it’s not it’s not to  make a statement that that’s not present  in me even right now in real time there  are of course ways in which we all  
don’t look but there’s something I had this feeling about and more systematic or a more 
robust feeling about that like and  not not like that that it’s conscious 
um but just like oh there’s that that  feels like the culture there and then we 
set about you know the individualism  versus individuality perhaps is one way 
of framing it um what I’ve been  thinking a lot about lately is how 
like each there’s all these different  movements you know socially culturally 
um politically and there’s a reason that  they that many movements you know even 
where we might look and say oh that’s  that’s not the most constructive 
movement there’s a reason that they  resonate with a lot of people and it’s   because in my from my perspective there’s some truth and some real  
deep value that that movement is speaking to people but the reason that in in my view they  
might be not not be constructive is because they leave out the other   side of the conversation so when I was  thinking about what you’re saying about 
individualism versus individuality I was  thinking oh there’s this really strong 
individualism and it’s not balanced with  collectivism you know like it feels like 
it’s it’s individual and then  it’s Conformity and it’s not 
like individuality and Collective  integration like there’s there’s some 
perversion of what I think is an optimal  kind of way of structuring a culture 
which is we we kind of celebrate  each individual’s attributes while 
um kind of collaborating collect you know  as a collective and finding a place for 
each person in reciprocal service yeah  and it’s not to say that there aren’t   other places I mean I think it I think in every culture I’m sure there’s ways  
that things can be recalibrated to  be more optimal like maybe there are  certain cultures that are so collectivist  that the individuality gets denigrated  
in some ways that are hurtful of course that exists as well   so there are all sorts of ways in which you  know we can I think that not only we can but 
we have the responsibility to be looking  at where these where that balance is and 
how to recalibrate and create a more  optimal way of relating yeah yeah 
absolutely yeah for some reason as you’re speaking   I was reminded of [Music] um the cul-de-sac maybe  
it’s because you live you grew up on a cul-de-sac   and like the design and function of the cul-de-sac was like this filtration system  
to keep you know the Riff Raff out or to see who’s in your neighborhood there’s  
a book about I’m forgetting the name of  the author called the wages of whiteness  and and white supremacy in in  Suburban designs specifically in that 
the cul-de-sac sort of functions as  keeping people that symbolize poverty 
sort of out slows them down you  kind of get a chance to see them   you know get a take on them and um and then on top of that again specifically  
referencing the bio original  bio region in which we grow up  grew up in thinking about how many  neighborhoods were actually built on Marshland 
and how that is actually the ecological filtration  system that like helps to purify the rain water 
that goes out to see and so there’s this sort  of like simulation of filtration that’s based 
off of ideas and ideologies and  then there’s the Erasure of the 
actual filtration system that supports you  know aquifers and Marsh territories and and 
ocean territories and I don’t know why that’s  coming to mind as I was listening to you 
I think I just sort of like drew me into  like an ecological perspective on what’s 
happening in in the where we called home  I’d also love to talk about some of the 
things we’ve been communicating  about lately separately   um because I think something I’m feeling really in touch with right now is my own  
wounding so often I’m speaking to the  capacity that we all have to transcend 
our ordinary limitations and you know  live our greatest potentialities and   make an impact on the world and and Achieve kind of Awakened States Of  
Consciousness and you know all of that  is true and I believe it and I think  that I also want to just be  really mindful of speaking to 
how our wounding is a part of  of what opens up our Highest 
Potential it’s anything any way in  which we engage with our you know 
limitations is ultimately kind  of a part of the process that 
allows us to become the greatest version  of who we are and so I’m feeling kind of 
in touch with my wounding right now um  and my uh my limitations my struggles 
and kind of you know was thinking  about potentially exploring some of the 
conversations we’ve been having around  codependency boundaries communication 
um you know would you be interested in  exploring that I’ve been dealing as you 
know with chronic pain and being  medically disabled since I was 12 and 
I’ve tried a lot of different things to  try to make that pain go away and make 
myself different   and a part of it is natural you know to it’s natural for us to not want to feel pain  
and what I’ve found recently that just feels so 
deeply aligned with um what  it means to be present to my 
wounding is to just allow like  just allow the Pain Feel in a 
systematic technique as well to  feel to feel all the Nuance of all 
the pain to go right into it and track everything  as if I’m a witness to something that’s happening 
um and in that there’s this sort of  resourcing that is established that 
allows me to validate what’s going on   um and validate that it’s my experience and then also invoke  
um sort of third party in my consciousness that um is sort of an observer in the room 
and it takes away my  propensity to coerce in a race 
um and the way that my nervous  system responds to that   is radical it’s radical because the nervous system feels heard  
um the nervous system doesn’t feel corrected so that’s something that comes up for me in  
response to the the topic of of witnessing and feeling wounding  
um codependency and boundaries there’s sacred coping you know devices mechanisms that 
most of us have learned are useful or were useful 
and as we get older we can see  how they are no longer useful 
and don’t necessarily create the safety  that we’re looking for which kind of 
leads me into the notion of  safety at all and how safety is 
it’s a valuable simulation  it’s important it’s not like 
you know I also think it doesn’t exist  ultimately but it’s important to create 
so it’s almost like it’s almost like  boundaries and codependency are sort of 
the guides they’re the sort of harbingers  into the deeper wound they kind of let us know 
um they’re the protectors right and   thing that I’ve been noticing is how little they actually protect me and how they  
they actually sort of estranged me from my nature and from  
um what it is that I long to do and how it is that I long to live and like that’s  
okay like they’re here like come in you know come in to the circle and let me learn about you 
and so yeah those are Notions that come  up for me around all those things in 
response to your invitation yeah  the thread between the two from 
where I was but I was  feeling and and pondering was 
this of this idea of being in  conversation with our parts you know uh 
with our nervous system with our  codependency with our wounds with   our boundaries like that these are all parts of us that you know and and as you beautifully  
said about the nervous system   um you know when my nervous system is  heard it can relax and release you know 
it can it can sort of self-liberate  self-heal and there’s something in that 
process that is feeling on a more  psycho spiritual level because 
um we are getting out of the dynamic of  coercion and Erasure right and you know 
so much of us are so much of our culture  is coercive and we internalize that and 
we have these war-like coercive  relationships with ourselves and   it’s really in the surrender to our own involuntary pain that there’s such a  
great deal of spiritual and psychological Liberation and   healing that occurs and so I love how you talked about kind of oh here’s here are these things  
like say with codependency that in in my words would be you know defense mechanisms  
protective mechanisms but it’s  like yeah well welcome because I  need protection like we need protection  and we don’t know ways to assertively 
protect ourselves well that’s fine here  we are you know in this pattern that 
might be backfiring and as we become more aware of  that we can start to relate in more empowered ways   we can gain skills but the beauty of just welcoming in and listening to our parts  
is so healing and transformative and there’s a lot of research actually to   back this up internal family systems  therapy is a modality that’s really 
about you know naming our parts getting  to know them listening helping them feel   heard and understood and uh you know there’s a lot of evidence that supports  
its efficacy and Trauma healing as well  as even physical health conditions it’s 
it’s quite remarkable the reverberating  effects that it has on our system to 
welcome and integrate and listen to all  of our parts and the the seminal book in 
in ifs is called no bad parts and so the  premise is you know even the things that   we think are you know the worst parts of us the most damaging destructive defenses  
they all serve a purpose they all  have a positive and intent they may  not have positive consequences so they  may have you know harmful things but  
they have a positive intent and when they’re listened to they can kind of   relax and serve the purpose and and  actualize that positive intention 
it makes me think so much of the punitive justice   system as opposed to restorative justice  
um I’ve been fantasizing kind of going back to like design of systems like the  
suburbs I’ve been thinking about prison  systems and prison reform and I and I  have very little education Beyond being  exposed to the current political justice 
system because of my family my  parents occupations of choice 
um what would it be like to have this sort  of language and template laid over folks 
who are struggling with addiction  or folks who are violent 
um and tracking the Nuance of their  stories of their origin stories of   the families and neighborhoods in which they grew up and instead of approaching things with  
punishment approaching things from a regenerative restorative model that allows for their complexity  
to be explored and provides resource in response to the  
complexities that are discovered about  that particular person’s biography and  biology it just doesn’t make for example  like addicts it makes no sense to me 
with someone who is trying to take care  of themselves and self-soothe through   whatever substance they’re drawn to are sent to prison it’s like I mean I understand  
that there’s Nuance I understand that like maybe they they’re being violent or they’re   breaking other laws or violating  people’s safety and boundaries 
um in order to acquire that you  know attempt to medicate themselves 
but I think that um there’s just  room there’s room for this ifs model 
um in the justice system and I’m  sure it’s a harrowing Road and 
there’s a lot to do and a lot to implement in  order for it to be applied and applicable but 
yeah what if we started looking at  things from that perspective as if 
someone isn’t doing something wrong or we aren’t  doing something wrong we’re just trying to 
take care of ourselves yes and if we 
if we perspective which is what is true  you know like we individually in a way 
we individually don’t commit crimes like  I know for example that if I were in 
certain circumstances I am confident  that I would have made very different   choices but to presume that I am somehow morally Superior is I think the error uh  
you know that a lot of people make is you know that I I made these choices  
you know as an individual sort of decontextualized and it’s really unfair because  
it’s like put in the right circumstances or the wrong circumstances I think we’re all capable  
of nearly anything you know I’m just going to say that I mean in   response to what you’re saying there’s  two things that come up for me one is 
that the Empire makes money off of people being  incarcerated you know and that that leads me to 
wanting to throw into the pot that  there’s something about the loss of 
indigenosity that’s in the mix as to why  we as a species are dealing with so much 
depression um struggles  with regulating our nervous 
systems addiction violence I mean  all of these sort of like less Savory 
aspects of The Human Experience are they’re  part of the human experience I think regardless 
um and I think that the sheer  magnitude of the presence of those   different qualities and coping behaviors I feel like really confident and I I don’t  
know if there’s any studies but just through my own observation   and work on grieving the loss of  my indigenosity as a white person 
um I just feel how it goes back  to that you know of this like 
separation from place and how the  a place and land in a bio region 
influences my sense of belonging to  community my sense of participation   in community what clothing I wear you know it’s like the fibers aren’t from the land  
upon which I lived or died with the  plants from that territory you know  there’s there’s sort of this dilution of meaning 
that is connected with that that intersection  of Empire and loss of indigenosity 
um that we’re kind of indirectly  referencing in my opinion that we   talk about any of the things we’re talking about and which brings a really important  
question into the foreground which I think is Paramount to moving forward as a people 
is like what does it mean to restore  indigenosity when we don’t live in the 
place that our ancestors originated  from what does it mean to 
create meaning connection with the human  and the non-human at the place where in 
which we live yeah it’s a big one 
yeah one of the most kind of  helpful concepts for me as I’ve been 
trying to reclaim a non-dogmatic  spiritual awareness is around my 
relationship to Nature and the framing  of individual or person and nature as 
opposed to individual or person as nature  um you know like like that I’m actually 
not separate from the land I’m actually  I’m actually not separate from nature   we’re actually counterparts and we are we are interdependent and yet not only  
our thinking has taught us to be separate but our um you know are  
our development our our kind of like design like our Urban Design like   the way that we’ve designed things has furthered this concept and instantiated it  
um in the way that we live yeah yeah totally I think that’s one reason so I feel weird   in the suburbs it’s like I don’t I don’t feel that um it’s difficult to feel that  
to feel nature but it makes me think about are you have you familiar with  
um the author and thinker I think his name is David Abrams he wrote  
um becoming animal that’s the name of this book yeah he has this really interesting  
um lecture series he was doing in Amsterdam that I nerded out on several   years ago that’s definitely informed my  work as a dream worker specifically but 
certainly also somatic work which is  why I call my business movement ecology 
um it sort of plays off this idea you’re  talking about of the body as nature 
um but he talks about how like you could  go into the like 20th floor of a high-rise 
building and open the fridge and find  like some forgotten Tupperware left over 
that’s covered in molds   and how like the wild is everywhere Like There’s No Escape no matter how like we’re  
all gonna die which is an example of  wild nature like There Is No Escape  we can try to convince ourselves  otherwise with our gadgets and 
our cul-de-sacs and our you know  fluorescent lighting or whatever but 
it’s here and and similarly like  that’s something that I talk about 
with DreamWork is for some of us it’s kind  of our only access to like the wilderness 
because dreams are feral they do not obey our code of ethics our sense of morality 
um they live in the realm of taboo of  violence sometimes of of Terror and 
unspeakable Beauty   um so yeah I totally agree with you and there’s something really  
really deeply deeply important about recognizing that we are we are wild  
nature and what is it what does it feel like to rewild ourselves and I think  
that going back to Parts work it’s sort of like allowing all the all the inputs   in the ecosystem of our being to be  witnessed and present and tracked and 
noticed because they’re there even if we  don’t want them to be there you know it’s like 
so tell me about how you how your dreams well 
the lineage that I that I have been studying  um with my mentor Matt Cochran for I’ve 
been studying with him for over 10 years  it’s actually called dream tracking 
which is a term that he coined that  um like in streamwork to tracking 
an animal in the wilderness finding  their tracks in the forest floor 
and in approaching dreams that way they  become sort of a dynamic territory that 
we get to return to again and again and  learn and understand and it becomes a   relationship that grows and responds as we continue to respond to them um 
yeah so that’s sort of like  the premise of the work is 
is acknowledging that there is no patent  way of interpreting dreams I don’t I don’t 
actually feel comfortable  with the word interpretation   I feel better with tracking  we’re relating to dreams 
um it really helps to sort of know a little  bit more about the back story of what’s really 
what’s a pers what is whatever person I’m working  with what is their experience of their life 
up to this point and what is most  pressing in their life and in that   particular moment and with those two understandings listening to their dream 
and there’s different tools there’s  somatic tools of like understanding 
you know how someone feels in their body  when they remember the dream or actually   speaking about the dream in present tense so we’re actually like returning  
into the territory of the dream  I find to be really helpful it’s  difficult it’s it’s difficult to  remember to do that I I still struggle 
with it um but it’s really useful way of allowing our sort of cognition to take a step aside  
and not in in not um analyze a dream with our waking mind but actually be  
in the dream and remember how it felt so we can we can really gather the  
authenticity of what the dream is trying to offer how is DreamWork used in service 
of maybe some kind of transformation  or change like what’s the purpose of 
DreamWork and and how do you see it  relating to people’s goals or you know 
um capacity to uh to change or transform in some way I find dreams to be really pragmatic 
even if the language is outrageous or outlandish dreams really show us what we need to look at  
what’s that Mary Oliver poem about  nightmares the nightmare comes and 
tells you that you need to  know this it’s [Music] um 
it’s an honest it’s the I feel like dreams are  perhaps one of the most honest voices that we have 
and that goes back to their wildness so in terms  of like relating that to personal transformation 
um it’s sort of a sacred catalog of what needs to be known either for us or for someone  
else like we can have dreams for other people we can have trains for the land like  
it’s yeah it’s difficult for me to answer that question because it feels like  
it’s so much more of an organic  process it’s difficult to quantify 
um and like being with our Dream self 
restores an aspect of our Humanity  uh who knows where it will lead us   I mean for me personally as you know I’ve recently decided to move to Oaxaca Mexico  
and I made that decision based off of a dream that I had   and I that I’ve had I had like six or seven years ago that I’ve been holding  
and not trying to turn it into something right away it’s my mentor always kind of like  
I’m telling me about that because one of the things that he says is how   can you let the dream live that’s like  a precept of this dream tracking work 
um and sometimes I really like to  literalize it right away the dreams   dreams tell us what we need to know and then it might be something that’s going  
to be useful like many years from now  in terms of like what is wanting to be  transformed or it could be something that needs  to be turned towards the following day you 
know um but it’s really how dreams participate  in someone’s transformation it’s as 
infinite as there are people and experiences 
um which is some it’s like it reminds  me of the planet you know it’s 
it’s they’re so complex it’s it’s  difficult to know how they will and and 
yeah yeah what came up for me when  you’re talking was you know this feeling 
that in a way you that our  dreams can be like prayers 
or um or little messages from our higher  self or our future self or something 
that’s being born inside of us saying  you know over here you know yeah 
invite to look to pay attention to to see um yeah and just from a kind of  
psychological lens you know what you were saying made me think that really our dreams  
in some ways are about integrating our shadow and um and our unconscious uh and so much  
of you know what I believe is transformative is our ability to   integrate the disowned Parts the parts  that we think are bad you know back to 
our ifs conversation right um to  integrate the parts that we don’t 
see and to bring them into some kind  of Consciousness so that you know not   to control or coerce them but to to be in relationship to them as you say yeah and  
then I I also am thinking about like  shamanic journeying Altered States Of  Consciousness and this this phrase keeps  coming to mind you know dreams are the 
language of God which I’ve heard  before I don’t know who said it   um but yeah there’s a there’s a way in which it connects us to this Primal uh non-verbal 
um imaginal space that’s deeply spiritual yeah yeah I mean it’s it’s everything all at once  
it’s time stacked on itself it’s it’s the past and the future and the present it’s  
you know epigenetic memory it’s it’s practical it’s applicable  
it’s actionable it’s metaphysical it’s mysterious it’s ineffable it’s everything  
how your dream work relates to your work as a musician artist   um yeah thank you so much for that Curiosity it’s it’s fundamental in my work I mean  
so much of even the language that I choose is referencing dreams 
um yeah it’s my art wouldn’t be what it is if it weren’t for  
for the DreamWork so think it’s just it’s endless poetry you know it’s endless imagery 
and it ties into this like deeper Taproot of what um is coming through me that I need to know 
or explore or be lost in or and or for  someone else to feel heard or seen or 
access to whatever that Taproot is  you know that really um I don’t know 
functions collectively um yeah  my my next album is coming out 
it’s been it’s been idling for a minute which  is to my chagrin and has to do with covid 
um but we’re going to be releasing it in the next  couple months and some EPS called ancient powers 
and the the title and most of the tracks weave dreams into into the work 
um it allows me to trust the work you  know like when I reference my dreams 
I know that I um bringing something that is hidden that’s coming through me into the world in  
a way that is um relevant and 
and hopefully relevant for other people  yeah how has your creative life and your 
music Been instrumental in your  personal development or healing 
oh thank you for these great questions I feel  like my first album was really about grief 
and particularly tending to The  Unfinished grief in my maternal lineage 
um yeah I think that everybody  of work and whether it’s music or 
performance Taps into different layers of my my healing and hopefully  
creates culture of permission for other people to feel inspired to do the  
feeling that needs to be felt um there’s also like a pleasure piece 
um and a somatic piece of like  where am I singing from in the 
body like how does it how  does the sound and the tone 
um bring liberation um first when I was recording  
I mentioned this to a friend who  was interviewing me a while back  um about this most recent album that we  recorded of one of my design constraints 
was like how is this where is  the pleasure you know like does 
this feel right or am I lost in the weeds  of my brain trying in like production mode 
um and if I can stay centered in that pleasure   um that you know is really also like tied to dismantling the white  
heteronormative patriarchy if I can  tap into that felt sense in the music 
I experience healing and I hope that  that is like encoded into one of the 
layers of the song um or bodies of work um  
yeah I think I answered your question  did I yeah that’s beautiful I what a  profound connection between  kind of pleasure and dismantling 
oppressive systems I mean I I I find you  know where my mind went first and then 
I’d love to pull that thread a little bit more  um sort of a new line of thinking for me but 
the where my mind first went  when you were speaking about   your art is you know I’m also a poet um as you know and when and and part  
of art for me is really just getting present to what’s already alive in my  
imagination and my body and my and it’s just it’s just putting words or music   or whatever your you know images to the  thing that is already alive in you and 
it’s just being awake enough present  enough and attuned it’s for me it’s it’s 
really a healing process to be able to  trust myself enough to bring what is 
inside of me into the three-dimensional  World in a way yeah in itself is 
a healing process totally and I’ve  been thinking a lot about how kind of 
self-trust and self-love are really  related in a way that I’ve been quite 
connected before because it’s really hard  like for so long I felt so wounded because of 
my mental illness um I felt so  wounded in my ability to trust 
my own mind and my own intuitive knowing  even though it was very much intact I 
didn’t know which voice to listen to at times  or I felt so I felt so compromised in my 
ability to trust my own perception  um and and so much of my ability to 
reclaim love and and compassion for  myself has been related to my ability to 
reclaim a sense of of my own inner knowing and uh feeling that my intuition that I can rely  
on my intuition in a way that allows me to navigate the world   and there’s something healing in that that  I’m not sure I can fully articulate but 
I I feel like self-love and self-trust  come together I’m not exactly sure why 
um it feels true to me and the Poetry is  sort of like the invocation of the words 
coming through you is an exercise in  in the soft trust and the way that 
that threads into the self-love  and the restoration of instinct 
yeah I love that that feels I feel  something really similar in the act of 
creation and and there’s also like this Faith  piece you know of like just showing up and 
being like all right I’m here like I  don’t know what is going to come through   I feel like a lot of doubt that anything is going to come through and then it does  
and there’s something really yeah it’s interesting to think about   healing does dismantle systems that  you know Thrive off of our self-doubt 
yeah because the systems can exist if  if we as individuals trust ourselves   our attuned our com you know to what is right and true in terms of like human  
dignity Justice fairness yeah like when when people are fully intact awake  
connected to our inner knowing about what is right and wrong like we can’t  
be controlled and subjugated like we  will not allow that and that’s really you 
know so much of why I I am feeling so  energized and inspired to live in a time 
where we have the technology to spread  awareness about how the relationship 
between personal and Collective transformation  like we as individuals when we wake up 
we can together help others wake up  and then together we can dismantle this 
whole system that is oppressing all of us  even even the people who are in power even  
the people of privilege like we are all hurt by it whether we know it or   not whether we’re fighting tooth and nail  to preserve the systems that we think are 
in our best interest they are they are  destroying us right yeah absolutely and 
I just I feel so privileged and inspired  to live in a time where we have the 
resources and Technology to  really make a meaningful impact on 
global issues and I think what feels so  like eye-opening for me of late is just 
this awareness that it does start with  our individual Freedom our individual  emancipation uh and uh and a reclaiming  of our own intuition pleasure self-trust 
um self-love and then as we awaken to  that we say oh my God you know it’s like 
it’s it’s a parallel process  right between our own kind of 
self-healing and our advocacy I think of  others and for systemic change because 
it’s like because because it’s just like  I’m not you know the healing isn’t oh I’m so 
great and this is why I deserve  love it’s oh I’m a human being   and every human deserves love and so if if I’m going to step into my own ability to love and  
advocate for myself that’s not separate from you know love and advocacy for others  
and so there’s just this really interesting way because I have such a   a history and the more individual small micro what’s called in social work the  
micro perspective that it’s been really powerful to see how uh we can think  
about scaling that because what where my heart really lies is like let’s let’s end  
Global poverty like let’s let’s like let’s not let’s not do this anymore like we can change  
the global Consciousness and all it takes is just each of us   doing our own inner work and then  helping others to self-liberate and and 
pass it on yeah I think that’s where the  New Age movement I mean one of the ways 
you know that the New Age movement is like deeply  flawed is that it centers exclusively the self 
when you know no one’s free till  everyone’s free and you know like we are 
interconnected and Sophie strand one  of my uh favorite contemporary thinkers 
talks about how the myth of the hero’s journey  is it needs to end and we in what needs to 
emerge is a mycological Consciousness  which is like the you know the 
networking the power of the network is  um it’s the way forward and so it is 
like this Ellipsis where it’s  like finding that Harmony between 
you know restoring the uh  degradated Ecology of the self 
that is degraded from the Empire from imperialism   currently you know what that looks like is the white heteronormative patriarchy  
and mono in my opinion the monotheistic influence it’s like in the mix certainly 
um and then also exploring like  what does your heart feel called to   outside of yourself where you see the degradation get degradation and the  
um the the destruction of the other’s dignity whether it’s you know poverty  
um whether it’s like super fun sites um you know the list goes on and on with  
the human and the non-human and we each  have our particular genius that we can  lend to what we feel called to help in  the Regeneration and restoration of and 
they can’t they have to coexist in  parallel individual and societal change 
are inextricably interwoven there are  counterparts you know again we have this 
way of parsing and separating  dichotomizing but really like as 
individuals we are incomplete if we do  not you know if we if we are not in some 
way in service of the collective  um if we like our destiny is 
in some ways to self-liberate so that we  can you know offer that gift to others not  
just as you say with the New Age movement you know this there’s   something so incomplete and and um I almost want to say masturbatory  
about that approach to self-development  like it’s all about me just living my  best life like that’s like I’m the like  that’s an incomplete life that’s not  
about your best life is not lived simply for you part of you living your best life   is you figuring out your unique gift  and how you can offer it in service 
so you know there’s just yeah I totally  agree I have a lot of problems with the 
New Age movement that’s not not the  least no that’s just one I love the Deep 
design for us well that’s that’s kind of  I think another reason why I’m feeling 
you know excited to create content because  there’s such a spiritual hunger right now  
there’s a hunger for meaning and purpose and and spiritual   consciousness but there’s not a language  around spirituality that isn’t new Ag 
and that isn’t dogmatic or religious  and so I’ve been really kind of you know 
that has been a very healing and  empowering part of my journey is was 
starting to listen to thinkers who were  having conversations around spirituality   where I didn’t have any alarm Bells where I didn’t like feel that protective  
like oh this doesn’t feel right to  me like it’s either coldsey or it’s  narcissistic or it’s new agey or it’s  dog with you or whatever it was like  
like any time I was interfacing with people around spiritual actuality   one of those things would come up in such a  way that I didn’t feel safe engaging deeply 
and it’s like spirituality is such a  deep steep process that like it requires 
a lot of safety and tenderness and so  um you know really wanting to normalize  spirituality and kind of offer a  framework for how we access you know our 
Birthright which is our connection  to Nature to our Oneness   um and and we we are most alive when in a way we are at least um self-focused right 
[Music] there is some coming together that  needs to happen between some sweet spot 
between how we identify as individual beings and function in the greater whole and um 
the systems that are really thriving  right now don’t want that and   they want us existing in a binary they want us existing in either or they want  
us to exist in results instead of the Meandering process which is the  
truth of what it means to be and the  Mystery of this Dimension and planet 
um yeah it’s an interesting time and like  with climate change and like all of the 
just like documentation of outrageous  oppression that is happening it’s really 
how do we how do we facilitate  change like very real change 
and acknowledge that like we’re a part of a  process we’re part of a lineage that like it’s not 
gonna all happen in our lifetime there’s  just like way too much work to do   so what does it mean for us to do our 
part and keep it’s almost like seed saving  you know it’s like what is our refinement 
that we have to offer to give  to the ones coming in after us 
you know and my belief is that if we  can take you know when we take as much 
ownership and responsibility for our own  internalized oppression pain suffering 
shadow um that as we transmute that and heal  that that organically and naturally we begin to 
wake up to how we we can uniquely serve  the collective so I think that yeah you 
know that it’s so important because  I’ve struggled with for such a long   time that’s like how do I help the world how do I help the world and you know I think it’s  
like well you you you really have to do a significant amount and not   always I mean of course you’re always  helping the world at every stage in your 
journey but I think there’s I guess I just want to  give people permission to be where they’re at in 
their process that like if right in this  moment you are focusing on your own healing   trust that in the long run that will be in service right right  
that’s a really important distinction yeah and like   people like we all are in various ways just going through a hell of a time it’s so hard  
and it’s so it’s so overwhelming all of the inputs that are coming at us that need  
tending and I totally appreciate  you speaking to that that’s um  because the exceptionalism is another  way that we oppress ourselves you know so 
yeah thank you for speaking to  that that feels really important 
it’s really a compassion piece yeah and a surrender piece it’s like  
you know for me I I’m  constantly kind of struggling  between the aspirational and  the actual and you know that 
when I’m in right relationship to my  aspirations they fuel me but when I’m in 
um wrong relationship they they  just create shame and actually  [Music] drive me away from you know my ability to birth what is what is true for me  
yeah and that it’s okay to be where you’re at   and thank you so much any final words you’d  like to share thank you and I just want to send 
love to everyone tuning in thank  you so much for for being here and 
sharing your your gifts and your  perspective thank you it’s fun to chat 


take care [Music]

Writer Bio

Brooke Sprowl is the Founder of My LA Therapy, a concierge therapy practice, and My Truest North, a cross-disciplinary coaching and consultancy firm specializing in mission-driven entrepreneurs seeking greater integrity, spiritual awakening, and deeper ways to actualizing their higher purpose through collective service. With 15 years of clinical experience as an individual, couples, and family therapist, she is trained in a wide-range of approaches, from evidence-based therapy practices to peak performance and flow neuroscience techniques. Brooke is also the host of the podcast, Waking Up with Brooke Sprowl. She is passionate about writing, cognitive science, philosophy, integrity, spirituality, effective altruism, personal and collective healing, and curating luxury, transformational retreat experiences for people who are committed to self-discovery and using their unique gifts in service of the world.

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